Okay, so, you've just rejoined the British Movement.

Yes.

Only this time, with contact with Jerry Gable [phonetic] and [inaudible].

Yes.

What kind of material were you able to pass to Jerry?

Some pretty good stuff. I rejoined British Movement, which was then led by Michael McLaughlin. And I was working at that time for Tony Reed Herbert [phonetic] who's a solicitor and a leader of the newly formed British Democratic Party which had broken away from the national front.

And what [inaudible]?

A [inaudible]. So, I had a foot in both camps. I completely bloody wrecked British Movement, absolutely wrecked it, because of McLaughlin. To say that he is not charismatic, perhaps be an understatement. And the first speech I made to the British Movement, the gathered hoards of BM, his jealousy became apparent, you know? So, he endeavored to expel me. No reason, except I was becoming more popular than him. So, alright, expel me, will you? So, I instituted legal proceedings against him. And bankrupted the bastard. And we -- British Movement just collapsed entirely. A lot of their supporters thankfully, dropped out of the political scene at that time. Those who were left and who quite clearly in any event would have joined some sort of extreme rightwing movement, I took with me to John Tyndall's startlingly, originally named New National Front, later to become the BDP, of course. I'm sorry -- the BNP.

When you -- you said you instigated legal proceedings against McLaughlin, what did you do specifically [inaudible]?

Well I -- well, I got legal aid. Being helped of course by Reed Herbert who was a solicitor who [inaudible] detested McLaughlin. So, I used him. And we sent him a writ. A wrongfully expelled man, various other bits and pieces. And he was constantly making appeals in various publications that the -- that he had for money to fight my writ. And eventually, just before it was to come to court, he stumbled upon a brilliant move, changing his name, thinking that that would -- forget what he called it. Something utterly ridiculous, thinking that that would prevent the action. Of course, it didn't. And when it didn't, he wrapped it up. He wrapped BM up, completely. So, as I say, I then took him -- took his support, what was left of it, to John Tyndall. But I exacted a price from Tyndall, which is deputy leadership of his new movement.

You mentioned the speech you gave to the British Movement, which kind of set you in a position.

Yes.

[Inaudible] McLaughlin.

Yes.

What did you say in that speech?

Well, it was at the time of ethnic [inaudible] riots in London. So, it wasn't difficult. And I attacked the police for cowardice. So, can you imagine you [inaudible] running about, throwing bricks through shop windows and looting them while they stand there watching you? Which is probably true. And you know, attacked the police to the consternation of Lady Jane Birdwood, who was a Tyndall supporter at that time. Silly old bat. But it received -- it was well received, to say the least. Delirious support because you know, the right wings are generally being seen as being in support of the establishment. So, I thought, "Give them a change." And I attacked the establishment in the form principally of the police and the government, for cowardice in dealing with the riots that were going on at the time. Now, McLaughlin always terrified of being arrested under the Race Relations Act, gave some drab monologue, and the sentiments of the gathered supporters was self-evident. And that's when the Ray for King Movement started in the BM which kicked it to a lot fewer.

Is that what they called it? Ray for King?

Well, that was nicknamed that by only two people, you know.

How -- you mentioned sort of when you reached South Africa, you had this you know, this change of heart. You made a lot of Jewish friends. You came back. You went to [inaudible]. So, your politics had obviously shifted. How did it feel sitting down to write that speech and then delivering it?

I'd never written a speech in my life, mate. Never. Never even used a note. I just never do. I still don't. But the -- I mean, it's fairly easy, really. You're dealing with a lot of white, working class kids from deprived areas. You read of nothing in the newspapers except about deprived kids from Black areas. And you point out the unfairness of this. Nobody cares about you. Your ancestors just fought the bloody Germans for these bastards in the establishment. That's all they did. What makes you think you own this country? Heavily laden sarcasm of course.

You mentioned kind of injecting this anti-establishment.

Yes.

And now [inaudible].

Yes, yes.

Was that something that was missing from the British Movement [inaudible]?

Oh yes, yes. Yes, very much so. The police were always right, no matter what they did. Any one with a vaguely foreign name was always wrong. And I mean, that sort of idiocies and difficult to attack.

What kind of relationship did the British Movement have with the police around that time?

Not good. Not good. It was just for people like McLaughlin. Try harder to [inaudible], you know, which of course is doomed to failure.

So, I mean you're the -- you're the name that's kind of come up in [inaudible] sort of stand out for [inaudible].

Oh, Nicky, yes.

Was he around at the time--?

Nicky was around at the time, yes.

Did you meet him?

Oh, I knew him well.

What was he like?

I liked Nicky. I liked Nicky. I always thought he was a likeable, kind-hearted, but misguided young man. Obviously, with a massive chip on his shoulder, but good at the heart. Solid block, you'd say, to his mates. "Come for a drink." "No, I haven't got any money." "Nicky, I didn't ask you if you got any fucking money. I asked you if you were coming for a drink." That sort of guy, you know? He was alright, Nicky was. And of course, he left them in the end. And I like to think, we have no evidence of this, but I like to think that I had an influence on that. On Nicky, eventually. Having the bottle, to come out and declare his search [inaudible] and [inaudible] out of the [inaudible] as I see it. You know? I like Nicky.

How'd you [inaudible]? Nicky Crane has this reputation as certainly violent.

Oh, certainly violent, yes. I mean, he was violent when he was on the other side as well. You know? Nicky was a first rated boxer, you know? And but I mean, it wasn't all one way. And attacking Nicky Crane wasn't a very intelligent thing to do, physically attacking him, unless [inaudible]. And you know, it wasn't all one way. And you can't get away from it, you know? You can't make an omelet without breaking eggs. You know? I have no doubt at all that I caused some unpleasantness for some people. It was impossible not to. You know, you've got a job to do it. You've got to do it. And of course, there's collateral damage. And of course, I regret that, very much. But realism's realism. You know, we lived in the real world. This is how it is. It's inevitable. And either you let these people just get on with it, and do nothing to frustrate them, or if you do frustrate them, and I imagine that frustrate them is putting it a bit mild what I did to them, but [inaudible] the collateral damage. And I'm sorry, but, you know, two twos are four.

Is there anything that sticks out that you particularly regret? Or you don't regret?

Well, there was on occasion when a couple of thugs -- I saw this happen. Driving in a car in Leicester, driving a car or another -- a Volkswagen Beetle. And I was in the back. And they saw this Black fellow. It was about midnight. Coming away from a meeting and we saw this Black fellow, and they jumped out and attacked him with police [inaudible]. And beat the shit out of him. And I didn't join in, and [inaudible] I didn't know what to do. I couldn't help the Black guy, physically. That would have been madness. It'd blown the whole bloody show. So, what I did, after a couple of minutes, the poor bastard was really getting a kicking, and I thought [inaudible]. So, I [inaudible] I shout, "Coppers, coppers." And they all ran back to the car [inaudible]. So, I came home, and I found Jerry. It was about midnight. One in the morning, perhaps. Got the poor bugger out of bed. And I said to him, I said, "Look, I don't care Jerry. I'll break [inaudible] for this. These bastards are getting nicked." Jerry said, "Don't make any decisions like that now. When you coming to London?" I said, I think it was Monday, I said, "Thursday." He said, "There's plenty of time. Don't have to report it the next morning. Come down. Let's have a talk. Let's see." I went down there, and this was right in the middle of the gun-running affair which [inaudible]. And Jerry said, "Look, I'm as sorry for this guy as you are mate. But really, we're dealing with things that could cost people their lives now. And if you do what you say you're going to do, you've blown it. You've got to weigh what the best option is." So, I argued for a bit. And then I said, "Well, alright. Okay. What about an anonymous phone call to the coppers, identifying [inaudible]." What's what I did. Made an anonymous phone call to the police. And they lifted them. And the stupid bastards admitted it, so they went to jail. So, you know, job was done, so I think. But, I mean there were other incidents quite -- not quite perhaps as dramatic as that, but similar instance in which I was powerless to do anything. And etcetera, etcetera, you know? [Inaudible] there we are.

This might be a slightly different time period, but the British Movement, [inaudible].

No, their activity areas, to the best of my knowledge in London at that time were centered around Brick Lane. It was -- Brick Lane was our -- and Bethnal Green, the Blade Bone Pub in Bethnal Green. Those were the two, sort of centers, of fascist activity in London at that time.

So, your faction, I don't know, call it [inaudible] in the British Movement that you take with you, join it with--

Tyndall.

-Tyndall. And then you launched [inaudible].

Yes.

What did the two groups make of each other? Was it easy bringing [inaudible]?

No, because British Movement -- the British Movement was regarded the [inaudible] and the BNP was a bunch of bloody pansies. You know? [Inaudible] fresh [inaudible] and I quote of course. So, it wasn't easy, but we did our best, you know?

So, was the BNP committed to an [inaudible] strategy from the get-go?

Yes.

That was a [inaudible]?

Yes, although, although, Tyndall was quite happy to have a sort of street-fighting section which he could distance himself from when he needed to, you know?

So, who was around at the time when you joined? Any [inaudible]?

Andrew Fountain [phonetic], Tyndall, Edmonds [phonetic], Doyle [phonetic], [inaudible] off the top of my head, Cavanaugh [phonetic], Jerry Colland [phonetic], excuse me.

Yes.

Okay, fire away.

So, oh -- so, you're second in command of the newly formed--

BNP.

-BNP. Yet, what's the plan? What's Tyndall [inaudible]?

Tyndall believed in a two-pronged attack. He was a devotee of [inaudible] of course. He believed you had to control the streets. And he also believed that we had to have an electoral role. So, we had to try to preserve our decency credibility, and anybody who was nicked for violence or anything of that nature, was dissolved. He wasn't a BNP supporter [inaudible]. He was absolute [inaudible]. So, he banned the [inaudible]. But that was the public sort of persona. And the other was straightforward, electoral sort of approaches. Another important person [inaudible] I neglected to mention of course was Tony Lecomber. We heard of Tony. Tony did four years in the nick. Jerry Gavel [phonetic] will give you more details about this than me, if you want to make a little note of that. He did four years in the nick for -- he was caught with a bomb. Don't know what he was going to blow up. SWP offices or something of the sort. But Jerry will tell you all about that. And I took him to Lord's [phonetic] when England were playing, and he and a couple more ran onto the field. He was at the time that the Indians had demanded to England, did not pick Geoffrey Boycott because Boycott [inaudible] with South Africa. And they ran on with a bloody great banner which read, "Don't Boycott Geoff." That was my wording. So, it was [inaudible] and laid down. Stopped playing for about 20 minutes. So, it was stunts like that, you know, relatively harmless from the political wing. And the more active wing got on with what it does best. Beating the shit out of anybody who opposed them if they got the chance.

Any particular instance of violence that stand out around this time?

Well, the one I told you about earlier was the one that really did stand out. But there were lots of things like that. I mean, come out in meetings. A Black guy wandering down the street, poor bastard, you would kick him, you know? Simple as that.

Where meetings are focused on violence.

Well, you don't belong here, you know? And of course, if he was with a White woman that was red [inaudible] to a bull, you know?

So, going back to this idea of kind of the electoral perspective of things to the party--

Yes.

-and the deniable--

Yes.

-street violence--

Yes, yes.

-kind of thing. How did that -- how did the party manage to communicate that potential [inaudible]? How did they give that impression of respectability and [inaudible]?

Well, simply by pursuing legitimate political objectives. Finding elections and behaving themselves. Insisting on, you know, color and tie and that sort of thing, was one thing. Was one matter. But you know, I have a lot of sympathy with a lot of the working-class kids who were dragged into this sort of culture. Christ, I'd been one of them. And I have a lot of sympathy for them. And I do not believe that you could condemn some poor bastard who decides today, that he wants to stand as a candidate for the Labour Party or the Tory Party or anybody else, and say, "Well, in 1991, he was a member of the BNP." So fucking what? So what? There were members of the BNP, most of them, because they hated the establishment. There were -- it was a rebellion. And they had more in common with the left-wing -- university left-wing movements like SWP and one thing and another, more in common with them, than you would imagine. Far more. They detest the establishment. They see life as being dreadfully unfair to them. Both of which are legitimate views in my opinion. And the only thing is, they target their own opponent. You know? They -- I think I gave you one example. And I was working in the scrap metal yard. "Don't want to work in the rain. That's alright, don't worry about it. Fuck off if you don't want to work in the rain. I've got a gang of niggers that will do it. Have them in here in an hour." Who do you hate? You don't hate the gaffer who said that to you. You hate the in-quote, "gang of niggers." You know? It's silly, wrong but regrettably human nature in many cases. And these people should be on our side. I'm a radical. I'm 75-years old, still a radical. [Inaudible] 95-years old, I'll still be a radical. That's what I am. And they should be on our side. They should be fighting for a better country, you know?

Do you know any [inaudible] made it out far right politics into a more -- into the mainstream politics, be that left or right, or [inaudible]?

Yes, but I'd rather not dive into that then frankly. I know one or two [inaudible] of backgrounds in what would be described as extremist movements, but [inaudible]? Decided that yes, things do need to change but you know, there's different ways of changing them. And they settled on the right way and that'll do for me, you know.

In most cases that you know of, are these people open about their past or do they have to--?

No, they've got to be sensible. And they don't advertise it. I doubt that they deny it if confronted with it, but they don't advertise it.

So, when you see [inaudible], I mean obviously, the most recent [inaudible].

Yes.

You know, actively saying, "We will not allow people with past associations with--" it's usually the BNP they talk about with their standards, as candidates for the UK [inaudible].

Yes.

It seems like periodically, they go through which -- I think it was the 2015 general election, you know. It seemed like every week there was a new set of candidates from far-right associations in UKIP.

Yes.

How do you think those policies affect the people involved in [inaudible]? Do you think it makes it harder to lead?

Probably, yes. I think that UKIP, and a ridiculous outfit anyway, frankly, that doesn't mean that I'm a devotee of the European Union, because I'm not. It's a bureaucratic [inaudible] monstrosity. But for UKIP, to -- I think they're just trying to prove their moderation, which might be a bit difficult for some of them.

So, during the BNP, you stand [inaudible].

Yes.

Yes.

Against Greville Janner.

How did that come about?

Well, I was asked to stand, and I stood. Straightforward. I got the third highest vote of any of BNP candidate in that election. It wasn't brilliant. Still lost my [inaudible]. But it was the third highest vote in the country.

And what was the -- was there a campaign strategy? What kind of things did you need to campaign?

I was interviewed on radio in Leicester. I'll never forget this. I was interviewed on radio Leicester and Greville Janner, was also being interviewed. We were all interviewed separately. And this woman who interviewed me, a complete, bloody clown. "Well, I'd like to talk about your economic policy." I said, "Well, I wouldn't." "Well, what do you want to talk about?" I said, "Our economic policy will put itself right when we have people who have the welfare of our nation devoted to it. Not divided loyalties. This man is a citizen of a foreign country." Which of course is true, he was. And they shit their self, refused to broadcast it. So, I had them in court in [inaudible] where they didn't have to broadcast it. And so, little stunts like that put me in good standing, you know?

Were you trying to win?

Oh, I knew I couldn't win, no. No, not really.

So, what prompt you to come out in the BNP and reveal yourself to be the mole?

Well, I'd had enough, put simply. And I'd been inside a long time. I developed various strategies. For example, I had a reputation of being an absolute cricket nut. [Inaudible] but what I did, it got me away from being expected to associate with them socially, because they'd have their social evenings and usually Friday night. "Bloody Ray, [inaudible] here again, is he? Where--?" "Oh, he'll be watching [inaudible], the silly bastard." You know, and I sort of created this myth of back -- it was a [inaudible] cricket because of course it takes four days. You know? And I could always [inaudible] I was [inaudible]. I wasn't anywhere near bloody, old [inaudible]. I was probably down in London, talking to Jarrett [phonetic]. But, it worked. And you have to do that because frankly, you know, you sometimes can't help it. You get that -- I mean like Nicky Crane, you get to like some of these guys. And [inaudible] some of there were genuine guys. Not the leadership. They're bastards. But some of the kids that who were pulled in, were genuine people who wanted a better world for themselves and for their offsprings. You know? Well, you can't condemn that for that. It was just their interpretation of it, influenced by people like Tony Reed Herbert and John Tyndall and [inaudible] and Fountaine, people like that, was taught -- Geegan [phonetic] was another, Philip Geegan [phonetic], another solicitor, who were manipulating them. So yes, I found -- I felt and still do feel sympathy for ordinary, white, working-class kids who were dragged and then corrupted, and inevitably bloody criminalized. Inevitably criminalized. And you know, I feel strongly about that. And it came time when I went to see Jerry and I said, "Look, I need [inaudible]. I want a normal life now. I'm just going to fade into the background." And Jerry said, "Well, look," he said, "I've got a mate, Dutchman called Ludie Boykin [phonetic]." He said, "He's doing a half-hour documentary on British fascism for Channel 4. Now what we'll do--." [Inaudible] for money. I'm not being paid. He said, "What we'll do," he said, "we'll stick you on there, put you in silhouette, distort your voice, and we can you know, you'll have a nice little goodbye present, you know, 500 quid." Something like that. I mean, even then, you couldn't by a [inaudible] for 500 quid, but it was worth a lot more than it is now, you know? So, I said, "[Inaudible] I'll give it some thought, Jerry." So, I went home. I talked to the wife. And met him, as arranged, a [inaudible] later. And he said, "Well?" I said, "Yes, I'll appear on your film," I said, "but not in the way you suggest, Jerry." He said, "What do you mean, in the way I suggest?" I said, "Well, this distorting my voice and you know, putting me in shadow and all that. [Inaudible]." I said, "You believe something, you've got to be prepared to stand up and say so. So, I want to look at that camera a go, 'Gotcha you bastards.'" He said, "You can't do that. You're fucking crazy." "Why not?" Fucking take my chances. I mean, I was quite useful in those days. And then, I'll take my chances, if you'll take yours. So, Jerry went to Ludie Boykin, who in turn went to Channel 4. The result was this whole idea of a half-hour documentary on British fascism was scrapped. And they did an hour and a half documentary on Ray Hill. And so, that was it. It was blown.

Somewhere towards the end of your involvement [inaudible], there was a story around a plot involving guns and [inaudible]. Can you take us through kind of -- it seems quite complex?

Well, there's two. One was a plan to bomb the Notting Hill Carnival. I think this is going to be '83 -- I could be wrong by a 12-month year. Like I said, I [inaudible] life. This plan was being financed largely by the BNP and I spent some time in Paris, because that's where the stuff was coming from. Explosives were coming from Paris, and this is unbelievable. It is true. You can check. Check it with Jarrett. We knew where the detonators were coming in. We knew where the explosives were coming in. We knew precisely what was going to happen. The idea of course, to kick off race war, because they believe, you see, and I think they're probably right, they believed that this would give them their chance. Under normal circumstances, no fascist government's going to be elected in this country. But when you have a -- when the country becomes ungovernable, bombs going off here and there and everywhere, and massive problems of that nature, violence and one thing or another, people will tend to turn to extreme remedies. They [inaudible] with the extreme left or the extreme right. They believe, and I think they still believe this, that under those circumstances, they will go to the extreme right. And I think they may well be right. I don't know. I think they may well be right. In any case, it would give them their only chance of real political power. And it will give them a chance, if not a certainty, certainly a chance. So, that was the thinking behind it. And I was right at the heart of it. I knew exactly what was going on. It got blown from page headline in the Daily Mirror. And of course, it was aborted. Now, the thing is, the [inaudible] were not convictions because of the manner in which I'd obtained the evidence, of course. I was wired up and what not. I mean, I think they -- I don't know if they're suggesting I should have fucking [inaudible] them or something. Ludicrous, you know? Absolutely, ridiculous. But anyway, we stopped it. It got blown. Now when I mention this in a speech, I always say, "But did we really stop it?" We delayed it, but what about that bastard? What was his name?

Copeland.

Copeland. Ten, 15 years later. Bang, bang, bang, all over the bloody [inaudible]. So, we didn't really stop it. You can't stop people, you know, evilly disposed people when they need to get what they wants. You know? So, we didn't stop it. Now, we delayed it. We postponed it.

How did it first come to your attention that someone was plotting to [inaudible]?

Guy called Tony Mousekey [phonetic] who was at the heart of it, regarded me as [inaudible]. And he told me. I got him on record. I recorded him. I walked into Boozer [phonetic], Gable [phonetic] was in there, Andy Bell [phonetic] was in there, the -- you know Andy Bell [inaudible]. I walked in there. Slapped me briefcase down on the counter, right down on the table, right between -- and he had a mate with him. Right between the three of us. Me sitting here. Mousekey there, his mate there. Slapped my briefcase down and started talking to him. And -- [inaudible] arrives. [Inaudible] arrives. Now, that was the one thing that was running at that time. And at virtually the same time, Reed Herbert, the solicitor, was trying to buy a gun. What he intended to do with it, they just don't know. He wouldn't do anything with it because courage and Reed Herbert and chalk and [inaudible]. You know, he's a [inaudible] gutted bastard. But he -- somebody would have used it. And he was trying to buy this gun, but he'd been set up. And he had this right-hand man called John Scrotin [phonetic]. John Grand-Scrotin, hyphenated. And he said -- he said to Scrotin -- I forget precisely every time -- no, wait a minute. Oh, yes, it was hidden. That's right. It was hidden by Grand-Scrotin to be picked up [inaudible] to [inaudible] Herbert, and he hid it in the graveyard in Leicester. And comes around to my house and he says -- told me what he'd done. Told me where it was hidden. Went back for it the next day. Of course, it was gone, because I'm blowing the whistle. And he came, "Ray, the fucking gone [inaudible]," he told me [inaudible]. "It's gone." I said, "Oh," I said, "Well, never mind." I said, "You made sure it was clean and no fingerprints on it [inaudible]?" And [inaudible]. "No, no. There were no fingerprints." I said, "And you wiped the plastic bag, didn't you?" that he had put it in, because plastic's wonderful for finger -- oh my God. Fucking panic stations. Well, Reed Herbert knew very well that Grand-Scrotin would never withstand a police interrogation. So, he gave me about a grand to take him to Ireland and lose him. And so, I went [inaudible] in Ireland in [inaudible] with this silly bastard. I mean, you can get a more advanced [inaudible] from memory and get a more exact account of these events, and a more accurate sequencing from back published of Searchlight. They've got them all. But it's my written account that you're reading when you read that. So, you know, that's the way to go down that particular route. Just get the back copies of Searchlight dealing with it from Jerry, and that's it. You've got my written account made at the time. So, yes.

Just going back to this plan to import explosives--

Yes.

-you mentioned that the BNP were financing it.

Yes.

Is that with John Tyndall's knowledge?

I would have thought so. I have no firsthand knowledge of that. John Tyndall never personally mentioned this to me. So, you know, I'm not going to scandalize the man when he's dead. You know, I think it almost incredible to suggest that he wouldn't know about it. I think he must have known about it.

Where were they buying the explosives from?

From the French Fascist Movement.

Do you know what the plan was to import them?

Yes, they were coming across the -- they were coming across separately, on the ferries. Weren't going to fly with them. They're not stupid. Not coming across other than being brought across on the ferries.

How credible do you think [inaudible] was?

Oh, absolutely. As credible as David [inaudible].

And just going back to Reed Herbert and his attempt to purchase -- I assume this was a handgun?

Yes, yes. It was a--.

Was there a reason he couldn't purchase one legal at that time?

Well, I don't suppose he would have -- I mean nobody would give him [inaudible], would they? He was a known political extremist, you know? And anyway, [inaudible] it was intended to be used for nefarious purposes, so, well, you wouldn't do that with a gun provided to you under normal, proper circumstances.

So, you mentioned that these accounts [inaudible] in Searchlight, did you write the accounts straight away or--?

Yes, more or less, yes.

How, I mean particularly in the instance of this attempt to purchase firearms and then disappearing to -- went to Ireland. There's some details in there which--.

Yes, there's a host of them.

Were you worried about kind of throwing suspicion on yourself?

No, not really. No, I could handle it. I knew exactly what I was doing. I had these people eating out of me hand, mate. Eating out of me hand.

So, you decide to come out with a splash. You make this documentary [inaudible].

Yes.

What kind of things do you talk about in the documentary?

Again, your best plan would be to watch it. It's a 90-minute documentary. It shows me making various speeches. It explains my conversion. It explains the methods that I use when I -- when I infiltrated. There's the full story. The Full Monty, you know?

How much of a hand did you have in making the documentary?

Well, no me, no documentary, you know? I was central character.

Did you decide [inaudible]?

Decided what I'd answer and what I wouldn't, yes. Yes.

So, what's the reaction like to this documentary?

Well, what'd you expect? I mean, John Peacock [phonetic] who was East [inaudible] organizer for British National Party [inaudible], whilst the documentary was on, and me and the wife were sitting on the television -- sitting watching television, [inaudible], "Ray, Ray, have you the [inaudible]?" "No, I haven't [inaudible]. Why?" "They're going on there [inaudible] you're a fucking [inaudible]. I mean now they've done it. The fucking [inaudible] up." I said, "They'll stop at nothing, the bastards, will they? Alright John, thanks for letting me know." [Inaudible] a gun. It was all planned of course, a gun. And I went to live in Mablethorpe, on the East Coast, about 15 miles north of Skegness. It is in between Grimsby and Skegness. And I opened a [inaudible] and that was the end of it. I was out, finished. Done my debt. I thought I had. And that was the end of that period of Ray Hill's life. Then the bastards found out where I was. My windows -- I mean, I must have been the only man in England to pave fucking [inaudible] by [inaudible] you know, but this is ridiculous. And then, what you do in that line, as you'd probably be aware, you've got to make as much room available as you can. Your 13 weeks [inaudible] year's wages, you know? So, I bought a big caravan. Put it in the back. My kids are sleeping in there. Bastards came [inaudible] it. Torched it. Now, as it happened, I had this next-door neighbor who was an elderly lady about 86, 87 years old. Don't know if you've got any elderly relatives of that age, but if you have, you'll probably know that what I'm telling you is correct. These people never sleep. You know, they get up and walk 15 times a night to make a cup of tea. You know what I mean? That sort of thing. And she saw something going on. Phoned me. Couldn't get me. I'm out to the world. So, she [inaudible] the police and that's what woke me up. And you know. That is probably the main motivating factor for what I do now. They were quite happy to slaughter to my fucking kids. It is utter, utter evil. And I know who it was as well. His name was Alan Gretchen [phonetic] one of blokes who did it. [Inaudible] bloke. And he was one of those responsible. And if ever I run into that man, I will break every bone in his fucking body and happily do time for it. I won't go looking for him. But if ever I stumble across him, he will have severe regrets. I promise you.

How'd you know it was him?

I just found out. Whispers. But there we are. That was too much. I had to move. So, we moved over to Leicester. I changed everything then. Went into business. Bought a little shop. Went into business. Went to university. Got myself a history degree, and spent the last 15 years of my life doing private tuition in history and English lit. Last 15 years, I've been working a lot. And at the same time, speaking wherever I was asked to speak on this subject. And I still do. I still do that. I'm now retired, but I still do that. And I don't, never have and never will, charge a speaking fee. Never in my life. I do this because it's a passion. And I work now for an outfit called the JLS, Jewish Learning Society, I think it is. Something of the sort. And they have a program called the Genesis Program about anti-Semitism and thing and another, and I do about a dozen or so talks every year for them. I also speak at Labour Party meetings, on occasion, and church gatherings on occasion. And when I get tired of it, when I start to think, "Oh, Christ, I don't feel like driving to London today, bloody hell. Staying overnight, fucking B and B. I've had enough," when I think about that, I think about Alan Gretchen and I think about my kids -- my two kids. What these bastards would have done to them, and it motivates me. I'm 75-years old now. And [inaudible] fucking 95, I will still continue to do it for as long as I can. For as long as God puts breath in my body and gives me the ability to do it, to explain just how evil this philosophy is, I will spend my life exposing it. Promise you.

Going back to when you revealed yourself, to be a mole--

Yes.

-what reactions were there from friends and family, sort of outside of [inaudible]?

Well, my immediate family, Glen was fully in the picture of course. Rest of the family, [inaudible] much [inaudible] them at all, really. My kids were too young to take much interest, although they do know. My youngest son, Charlie's a Vicker. Some bloody Vicker, I'll tell you, 6.1, 23 stalled, [inaudible] forward for [inaudible] rugby. [Inaudible] judo champion. And they ardent anti-fascists. My other lad is a counselor on Lancaster District Council, also active in the anti-fascist field, but not as much as Charlie. And that the only family member [inaudible] about. I've got quite a few relatives in Leicester, but they're Glen's side of the family. And [inaudible] any particular interest to tell you the truth. You know?

So, when were you first approached to come and talk about your experiences?

I think Jerry phoned me and asked me if he could give my phone number to a lad in the Jewish students' thing -- organization. I forget what it's called. Union of Jewish Students, that's it, UJS. And they asked me to go along to a meeting and speak to them and I did so. And I did it consistently for about 20 years and vote for the UJS. And on my 65th birthday, my wife said to me, "We're going out." I said, "Where are we going?" She said, "London." I said, "Fucking London?" "Yes." "Why?" She said, "The JSL lads want to -- JUS lads want to buy you a meal." "[Inaudible] fucking [inaudible] for a meal?" "Yes, well, you can't let them down. You know, they've arranged [inaudible]." So, we get down there and we go to this kosher restaurant. And there's [inaudible] ex-Union Jewish Student, official [inaudible] barrister, this, that and the other. And they bought me a meal and they said, "Well, Mr. [Inaudible], I'd like to thank Ray for his efforts on behalf of our community." And [inaudible] want to say that. [Inaudible] Air tickets, hotel reservations, trip to Israel. Everything -- didn't cost me a penny. And I spent eight days in Israel. Bloody marvelous. Bloody marvelous. Real -- a real, nice thank you. And I came back and promptly had a bloody heart attack. So, I told them it was delayed shock. But I've never been on a foreign holiday since and I'll never go on another one, because the bloody insurance cost more than the flights now. So, that's that, you know. But it's nice to know you're appreciated.

How do audiences tend to react when you talk about your experiences?

It depends on the audience and the age group. Of course, that's important. But the Genesis Movement is usually young professionals. And I usually give them a [inaudible] as well the Jewish community, I wouldn't say it's its own worst enemy because the fascists were its worst enemy, but it gives them a bloody close [inaudible] sometimes, you know? They're overconfident, misguided, think this is all history. Of course, it's fucking history. It can also become [inaudible] if they're not careful. You know? And then I tried to point out to them that what's happened once, can happen twice. And they should be very, very careful. Let's take the Janner business. Now I knew what Janner was over 20 years ago. And that is God's truth. Over 20 years ago, I knew that. A Jewish lad came up to me. He said, "I want to speak to you, Mr. Hill." I said, "Yes, of course." He was only 15. "Yes, of course you can." This was in the Northeast of England, Newcastle Way. I can't remember exactly where. Joel, his first name was. And he told me, [inaudible] and [inaudible]. And I said, "[Inaudible] tell your dad." He said, "I've told him." I said, "What does he say?" He says, "My dad says [inaudible] fucking [inaudible]. Everybody sees him, but I must keep away from him." He can't go to the police. It would devastate the community. "No, what devastates a community is covering up them bastards like that. That's what devastates a community. And it's a danger, and a very grave danger, of various minorities, including the Asian one." [Inaudible] Don't tell me they didn't know. Respectable people knew and turned a blind eye, and that's what happening in the Jewish community with Janner. Respectable people knew and turned a blind eye. Didn't want to damage the community. But they bloody damaged the community. They've made it 10,000 times worse than it need to be. And I try to warn them about that sort of thing. And I also warned them that the hatred that motivated the Nazis, the fascists, in the 1930s, still exists with even greater venom. Smaller in number, but if hatred at that depth, [inaudible] of that extent doesn't frighten them, then they're either very courageous or they're bloody mad, because it'll frighten me. It does frighten me. And you've got to be aware that these people are around still. There are people -- 6 million people in my lifetime herded to their death like cattle. Well, with less dignity than cattle, really. And you know, if they forget that, if that just becomes a detail of history to quote that French bastard, what's his name [inaudible]. Yes, [inaudible]. If it just becomes a detail of history, nothing to stop it happening again. Nothing at all. It has to be remembered. It has to be acted upon. And I'm afraid too many Jewish people now just view it as a detail of history. They all [inaudible]. And I think that's very sad and very dangerous. I really do. Because what you have to bear in mind, yes racism runs through fascism like blood runs through your veins, yes. But there's something deeper than that. The heart of it is anti-Semitism. No anti-Semitism, no fascism. That is the very heart of it. That's its engine. Need to remember that, mate.

Do you still follow [inaudible]?

But--

[Inaudible] in the news [inaudible].

Oh, yes. I'm pretty up to date with the -- yes, what's going on with them, yes.

What's your assessment [inaudible]?

I think they're more dangerous now than they've been for many years. The destruction of the BNP as an electoral force has meant the emergence of dozens, literally dozens, of very, very, violent, autonomous groups. So, there's no chance of them making electoral [inaudible]. But it's no coincidence that anti-Semitic attacks have rocketed. And will continue to rocket. You know, you can't kill an idea. Fascism's an idea. It's a philosophy. Yes, you can say it's a perverted philosophy, and indeed, I would agree with you. It is. But it is a philosophy. You can't kill an idea. You can't kill a philosophy. All you can do is make sure you're on top of it. Make sure you're the gaffer and not it. It's a big like an [inaudible] dog. It's either at your heels or it's at your bloody throat.

One of the interesting thing about [inaudible] in anti-Semitic times.

Yes.

Particularly in France.

Yes.

Is the relationship to [inaudible].

Yes, yes, yes.

What do you see as the relationship between the far-right in the UK and Islamic [inaudible]?

It's always been an ambivalent relationship. It always has been. And I know that Gaddaffee [phonetic] wasn't an Islamic fundamentalist. Not really. But this will illustrate the -- what I'm trying to say. Jerry Colland and [inaudible], political soldiers, they described themselves as. It was a [inaudible] wing of -- you know about it, [inaudible]. And I went over to see Gaddaffee and got money from him, quite a bit of money from him, on the basis of the mutual anti-Semitism. Until of course, even Gaddaffee realized that he was one of these subhuman, Black bastards that they were condemning out of the other side of their mouth. And it was terminated. So, there's a sort of love-hate relationship, between the fascists and the Islamic fundamentalists. They've got a common enemy.

So, I mean, [inaudible] the kind of interest in development of the far right is the emergence of [inaudible]. Some people [inaudible] as the new far right. But this is groups, built around a similar kind of narrative to the old [inaudible] narrative, that instead of Blacks and Jews, it's built around Islamic fundamentalists and [inaudible] immigration and [inaudible].

Oh, yes, yes.

I'm thinking in particular the EDL.

EDL, yes.

Lots of [inaudible] nebulous online groups [inaudible].

Yes, yes.

[Inaudible] parties.

Yes, well, EDL, what you -- again, you've got the same thing that I previously described this to you in another context. Tommy Robinson [phonetic] is an anti-Semite. The leaders of the EDL are anti-Semites. They keep very, very, very quiet about that. Keep very quiet about it. And the apparent and obvious enemy is of course, Islam. Now, one in maybe every 20 or every 30 kids who come along, prepared to beat the shit out of any Muslim in the sea. And roped in by such people as Tony Robinson [inaudible]. They'll spot him. This isn't an ordinary little kid. This is a bright boy. And he will be introduced to the real problem. Because who brought the Islamists here? The fucking Jews, didn't they? In an attempt to wreck our society. And if Islam turns on them now, well, you praise God. See what I'm saying?

Okay. So, the other thing I wanted to ask you about it, I know you're involved in Labour politics [inaudible]. Sorry, are you still involved with Labour politics?

I'm a member of the Labour Party, yes.

What was it like during the Labour Party after [inaudible] out the BNP and [inaudible]?

It was alright. I mean, I made a lot of very good friends. A lot of very good friends. They're welcoming enough. And some of them kind enough to express their admiration, you know? Yes, it was okay. No problem.

Do you ever -- did you ever spend much time with people for the [inaudible] Labour party?

The far left?

Yes.

Well, I mean, you come across them, obviously. And they're still there now. Ben, what's he called, Sofa [phonetic], is it? Looks like fucking sofa but it won't -- can't be called Ben Sofa, can he? And -- but he's chairman of the Palestinian group in the Labour Party. He's a Jew. Now, depends where you're standing. And if you're a Jew, he's a treacherous bastard. If you're a fascist, he's just a fucking clever Jew, isn't he?

I think that more or less gets us to where we need to go, and the end I think.

Okay, mate. Yes. Look, you got my phone number. If you need any clarification, you know.

[Inaudible] I mean, is there anything that we've not talked about that you're very keen to get on the record, to get on the tape? Is there anything that we've not touched on?

Not really. The--.