Searchlight Interview with Ray Hill, Part 1

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Date: Aug. 13, 2015
Publisher: Gale, part of Cengage Group
Document Type: Audio file
Source Library: Searchlight Archive, University of Northampton

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Searchlight Interview with Ray Hill, Part 1
Searchlight Archive, University of Northampton

Okay. So that's recording now. So I guess first things first.

Yeah.

Would you like to tell me a little bit about where you were born and brought up?

Born in Mossley, m, o, double s, l, e, y. Was then a little town with a in [inaudible] town. It's now, ridiculously, part of Greater Manchester. No more greater Manchester than our bloody Zulu. But you know what I mean.

Yeah.

And that's where I was born. And then I lived there until I was about 17, something like that. And joined the army.

So what were your mom and dad like?

Difficult. My dad went in the army when I was just a couple of months old. And I was brought up by my mom until I was, I think I was seven when he was [inaudible]. And I was a real little bloody mommy's boy, you know. [inaudible] crying so and so's hit me. First time I did that one for [inaudible] came back. "You will get out there and hit him back. And don't come in until you made him cry, or I'll make you bloody well cry." And it worked. And I found I was quite good. And, so, things changed. And then, eventually, when I got in the army I won a couple of amateur boxing titles actually, Western Command Champion. And became quite sort of athletic, and, you know, outgoing in that sort of way. My dad was in very bad health. He'd been a boxer himself before he went in the army. He was no boxer when he came out. He was a physical bloody wreck. Prisoner of war camp, escaped, bloody near starved to death. Weight of all nine stone when he was demobbed. Terrible, terrible time he had. And, of course, his ill health affected his temperament. So I had it better off as a kid, you know. And, so, it was a [inaudible] to everything, you know. So that's what my mom and dad were like.

Where was your dad prisoner?

I'm not sure where he was a prisoner. He was captured. He escaped in Northern Italy, and spent a year with the partisans in Northern Italy. [inaudible] of warfare, you know. Never thought much about it. But there was one thing that he told me that's always stuck in my mind. He wasn't a very humorous bloke, my dad wasn't. But I only later realized that this was his idea of a joke. He told me a tale about one day he's halfway up a bloody mountain with half a dozen Italian lads. You know, he sort of recruited anti-fascist Italians. And they spotted on this mountain track a broken-down flatbed truck with weapons on it, German weapons, and ammunition. He said, "So [inaudible] a row bloody have that. Come on, lads." He said, "There are a couple of mules in a field. So we got them, and rigged up some sort of [inaudible] some bloody harness. And rode it up to the wagon, and, you know, I kept moving." He said, "And we heard the bloody Germans coming." He said, "Come on. Get moving. Get them going." He said, "They wouldn't move a bloody inch." He said, "Tell him let's get them [inaudible] bloody have it at all." My dad said, "I'll move the bastards. Go and get some brushwood." And he lit a fire under them. I said, "Did they move, Dad?" He said, "Oh, they moved then. Yeah." He said, "About three foot."

[ Laughter ]

He said, "It was like every Guy Fawkes Night you've ever seen rolled into one." He said, "The Germans pissed off. They must have thought they were late [inaudible]. Where is our bloody [inaudible]?" He said, "They did a runner. We had to hide into bloody ditches." I was, of course, wide-eyed innocence. So I said, "What happened to the mules, Dad?" He said, "Do you know, I don't know. I never saw them again."

Oh, dear. Poor mules.

So there we are, you know.

Did you ever talk about politics with your mom and dad?

No. No. They weren't political animals. My grandfather was. And my grandfather, who had a great deal to do with raising me, with my dad being away, and my mother in ill health, in and out of hospital during the war. And I'll tell you what I think made an enormous impression on me. He'd spin in his grave if he knew. But this what happened. We were sitting at a stop [inaudible] road in Mossley. And the MP was Hervey Roads [assumed spelling]. MP for [inaudible] in Mossley, which at that time was a constituency. It isn't now. And on comes Hervey, 1951, general election, on the truck, standing on the back, with his microphone. No. He didn't have a microphone. I tell a lie. But he, what do they call them, sort of horn [inaudible]. And very theatrically stopped outside my granddad's house. Granddad was downstairs in his bed in the lounge dying from cancer. Walked by and I'm sitting up. And Hervey Roads, as I said, very theatrically said, "Ladies and gentlemen, you know I'm here to ask for your votes for my replacement, Mr. Sheldon [assumed spelling]. He's only just finished in the [inaudible] coming Sheldon. That was relatively recently. I'm asking for you to vote for, hopefully, my successor, Mr. Sheldon, because, as you know, I'm retiring from the House of Commons at the end this Parliament. And I'm going to another place, House of Lords. But more important things than that. I understand little Harry's not well. And I'm going to see him." Little Harry, my granddad, Harry Clark [assumed spelling], [inaudible] in Hervey Roads [inaudible], and canvassing for him when he became the very first [inaudible], that constituency. So I need troops. Mom and grandma sitting on the doorstep. Nice day it was. Walking backwards in front of them, practically bowing, you know, and dragging me. And then he comes, and he said, "Hello, Harry." So later on he said, "What's that one?" He said, "Well, lad, you aren't well. Thought I'd call and see how you were getting on, Harry." Granddad said, "No place for bloody lords and ladies. They slap doors, do ya?" So Hervey Roads said, "No. No. Now look, Harry. You don't understand." He said, "Your problem is, lad, I do bloody well understand. Now doors there. Bugger off!" Well, grandmom and mother, "Oh, oh, [inaudible] he doesn't know what he's saying. He's in a lot of pain, you know. He's not [inaudible]." [inaudible] I was still in the room. And looked at me and he said, "Never trust one of them, Raymond [assumed spelling], lad. They're all the bloody same. Every last bloody one of them. All the same." Had a big impression on me. I was about 11 at the time, ten or 11. Had a big impression on me, that did.

Do you know, because you mentioned your grandfather had canvassed, and so on. Do you know what turned him kind of off the hill?

Yeah. That was the lords turned him off of it. He was a real socialist. So it turned him off, mate.

Okay. So you moved to Leicester when you would have been about 15?

No. No. I was older than that. After I came out of the army.

After you came out of the army?

Yeah, right there.

Oh, okay.

Went into the army at 17.

So you went to the army at 17. So that would have been what year?

Sixty-one, '62. Something like that.

So what was the world like in 1961? Joining the army, I mean what kind of--

Well, I quite enjoyed the army. Won a few amateur boxing titles. I had a cushy time of it. And quite enjoyed it. Did a three-year engagement, you know. Did it because I thought that I [inaudible] from a national service anyway. As it turned out I wouldn't. I would've missed it by about three month. But it didn't matter. Went in, spent the three years there. And then sort of bummed around. All sorts of jobs. All sorts of fought in boxing booths. [inaudible] maybe you know what boxing booths were. They were sort of big marquis, tents that they used to put up on the third around, and offer you five [inaudible] five quid [inaudible] go three rounds with any of the lads on the platform sort of thing. I did a bit of that touring. Mainly there on the Midlands. Warwick, Leicester. Such places, you know, [inaudible]. And eventually settled in Leicester in the early 1960s. Can't tell you precisely when. And in '64, I think it was, I met my wife. And got married in '66.

Where did you meet?

Outside the pub. What had happened was I fell in this pub in London Road with a pal of mine, Tommy Cavanaugh [assumed spelling]. All hell broke out. It was a rough town then [inaudible]. But a big brawl broke out. So I'm coming out. I says, "Tommy, come on. Let's get out of here." And I run up the steps. It was in a cellar. And my wife-to-be and her sister were coming down. And we said, "You don't want to go down there, love. There's a bar [inaudible]." "Oh, dear. What's happened then?" Conversation struck up. "So what are you going to do now?" "Well, let's go have a coffee." And that was our first date.

So what were your politics like at this point?

I had no interest in them.

Okay.

No interest really. Vaguely [inaudible] I suppose.

Vaguely [inaudible]. Were you aware much of kind of what was going on in the country in terms fascist activism, anti-fascist activism?

Not in the very early '60s. No. It was about the time I got to know about it, it was about '65 when I started. I picked up some literature from an outfit calling themselves the "Racial Preservation Society." And it was right at the sort of beginning of the influx of immigrants here. Particularly at the Leicester. Leicester was a sort of favorite settling place for many of them. And this Racial Preservation Society was active as was an outfit calling themselves the "NDP" the National Democratic Party led by a bloke called David Brown [assumed spelling], Dr. David Brown. And, of course, it was [inaudible] the founding down in the front as well. So, you know, it was all happening then. And I took an interest in it.

So what was it about this particular piece of literature that caught your eye?

Well, it's unusualness. That's the first I'd seen of that nature. It sort of captivated me a little bit, because, as I said, I got married. Early '66 got married. And then I mean I could look through my window, and the area in which I was living was changing before my eyes. It was quite incredible. You had white flight. Anyone who could afford to--pshew--go and watch snow in the desert. Usually those people who most advocated immigration. You know? The greatest supporters of it usually. Out to the villages and suburbs. And I was there. Plenty more like me as well. [inaudible] the bloody hell is going on here? Strange languages, strange dress, strange food, strange customs, you know. But at the same time, you've got outfits like the Racial Preservation Society, the National Front, British Movement. Things like that sort of mushrooming in response to what was happening. And I took a simplistic view. I mean I was working at a scrap metal yard at one time. And it was absolutely bouncing down one day. [inaudible] bouncing down. Unbelievable. So I stood under a shelter. The foreman [inaudible] said, "Come on. Get move." "I can't bloody work in this." "Well, if you can't [inaudible], I can get niggers who can." And like many others I didn't think any more deeply than that. I didn't blame the foreman particularly. I blame the inverted [inaudible] niggers.

Okay. So do you remember anybody, did anyone stand out in this Racial Preservation Society? Anyone you remember [inaudible]--

Yeah. The Hancocks [assumed spelling]. Hancocks from Brighton where the sort of movers and shakers behind it. Of course, [inaudible] for the National Front, Martin Webster [assumed spelling]. That's a lot of crowd, you know.

Okay. And what was the politics like? Was it just purely anti-immigration?

Yeah. Straightforward. Stop this. This is our country. Our people fault for it. Not [inaudible] their way to these black bastards. Very simple.

Was there any cross over with any antisemitism? Any--

Not at that stage.

Okay.

And there still isn't, you know. There still isn't. When they recruit now in Burnley, Blackburn [inaudible] they don't talk about antisemitism. There's no votes in antisemitism. Talk about that black bastards got a job, and you haven't, mate. That's what they talk about. But their driving force, the motivating factor behind the engineers, the Martin Websters and the young Tindalls [assumed spelling], no longer with us, and people like that [inaudible] was very much antisemitism. Very, very much so, because it's a Jewish conspiracy. This is, of course, responsible for this. An attempt to mongrelize the nation.

So--

And you sort of graduate from one to the other. If they think this guy's got promise, he's got a bit more between his ears than one of the [inaudible] men, they'll take [inaudible] and explain matters to you. You learn about the conspiracy theory of history.

So is that what happened in the Racial--

Yeah.

Racial Preservation Society?

[inaudible], yeah.

So who explained all this to you?

It was, well, a variety of people. I mean Colin Jordan was one. He wasn't in the Racial Preservation Society I don't think. He might have been. But, you know, there was cross over. There were if you were in one, you were in them all. And there were local people. One guy in particular, what's his bloody name, founded the Anti-Immigration Society in Leicester, which was a feeder for these organizations. Can't remember the guy's name now. That's how memorable he was. But he sort of influenced me at the time. I think he was a retired school teacher. And he influenced me at the time, and talked to me about, well, of course this isn't all an accident. You know, this is following a very careful plan. It doesn't just happen. These things don't. And, so, I became active, and went on demos. One thing and another. And met Colin Jordan. You know about Jordan, do you? You know, CJ? And received quite a crash course from CJ. I'm from the Anti-Immigration Society. I mean reading lists, and I was lent books, given reading lists, pamphlets, so on and so forth. I can remember some of them now. "The New Unhappy Lords," AK Chesterton, cousin of [inaudible] at the point, was one of them. "Somewhere South of Suez" by Douglas Reed was another I think. Well, of course, the old reliable the "Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion," you know, when you progressed, when you've read a few David Irving tracks. And one thing led to another and I'll try that one. And that's got all the answers. The Protocols is, in effect, their bible. So didn't take very long to hook me, you know. Didn't take very long.

Why do you think it hooked you?

A combination of things really. Dissatisfaction, discontent, naivety, anger, you know. All the necessary sort of elements were there, as indeed they are now in the vast majority of working class kids who get roped into this sort of thing. They're angry. No job. See some Polish kid down the road who's got one. Well pissed off with life. Totally betrayed. He's got brothers or cousins who fought in Afghanistan, and fought in Iraq. And for what? So he can be on [inaudible] while they bring these bastards from all over the world to take his jobs? What's going on here? It doesn't change.

So why do you think you were chosen to kind of receive this knowledge? Why do you think they decided to give you the crash course, as they say?

Well, if that isn't fairly obvious to you, mate, I really can't tell you. I don't know want to [inaudible] arrogant, you know.

Are you saying you're a big guy?

Well, [inaudible]--

Boxer?

Well, you can see that. But also I'm not a stupid guy, you know. And that's what we look for.

Okay. So tell me about Colin Jordan.

CJ? A very complex man. One thing you can't take away from him, a man of immense personal courage. He really was. He was no coward. Immense personal courage. Put himself on the line anywhere, anytime. Didn't matter. He was a very clever, sort of puckish sense of humor. I mean I don't know, are you familiar with his attempt to arrest Harold Wilson?

No.

Oh, it's bloody hilarious. It was during the Rhodesian crisis, of course. So I [inaudible]. You'll be able to check this. There's a [inaudible] record of it. He turned up at Downing Street, well, to pluck up around the door. You used to be able to do that [inaudible]. Walked up to a couple at the door, and said, "Excuse me. Where are you going?" "Well, I've come to arrest the occupant of these premises." Of course, with all the press [inaudible], you know, [inaudible]. "But this is [inaudible] the Prime Minister." "Yes, sir, I believe that it is his occupation. Now I've come to arrest him. Will you tell him I'm here? My name is Jordan."

[ Inaudible Speaker ]

And a big impromptu speech about unclever. Saying things like it's treasonable to hand over any territory of a [inaudible] to the Queen to any foreign or alien body. And all you've got to do is read "The United Nations Convention," to see that it is a foreign and alien body by definition. He's handed over our Minister, therefore, he's committed treason. Now send out [inaudible]. I want to come [inaudible] nearest police station. Well, hell, it was bloody hilarious, you know. And, of course, I liked London hard as anybody else. And became quite attracted to the man.

Were you there for that stunt or?

I was in London when that happened. Yeah. Only watching so. But he was like that. And those sort of antics, they conveyed an impression of rebellious, of fearlessness, personal courage, you know, all positive sort of messages. And I admired it. And it wasn't until somewhat later, as I discovered the true nature of the man, I mean he was nasty, you know. Jokes about the Holocaust were par for the course. Hilarious to him. And, of course, [inaudible] a man. I'd never met a Jew in my life as far as I knew. Wouldn't know a Jew if one jumped up and bit me. And it's much easier to demonize people if, you know, you've never met. You've had no contact with. You don't know them, you know. And you're glad to believe anything about them. Which is what I did, you know. And it was only really my wife saw through him straight away. Almost immediately. Straight away. And saw through Tindall as well. And it was largely her influence that persuaded [inaudible] in '69, and emigrate. And I went to [inaudible] work. Like most of the Lancastrians I had a mining background. Never actually been in the mines myself. My brothers had. Cousins had, you know. Family members had. And, so, it was the obvious place. They were offering courses, government-sponsored courses in mining engineering. So I applied, and got it. Went out there. Now Jo'Burg, I don't know if you know any South African Jews with experience to Johannesburg in the '60s and '70s. They're not hard to come by. There's quite a few of them around. And they will confirm what I'm about to tell you. You couldn't live in Jo'Burg without experience in some social intercourse with Jews. There was an absolutely massive Jewish population. Absolutely massive. I met people. I didn't know they were Jews at first. But, eventually, I found out that they were. Got to know them, and quite liked them, you know. [inaudible] quite well. One particular friend, I had never made any secret of my past associations, "Hey, [inaudible]." He said, "That was then. Right? This is now." I said, "Okay. Forget it." And we became very, very good friends, you know. And I liked him. I liked him a lot. Dead now, unfortunately. But that's a sort of personal experience, which only occurred by chance really. The woman I happened to marry, and the fact that I went where I did go, you know, all by chance. But I met this fella. Met a lot of his friends. Were invited to the parties, and so on and so forth. I liked the guy, you know. But, as I said, I've always been a fairly upfront guy. And I never made any secrets of my past associations.

So just stepping back to the British Movement from Colin Jordan. I mean what was your role in the British Movement would you say?

Well, I think official title was East Midlands Organizer, British Movement. That didn't last very long. And I got into it because, as I said, I went to South Africa. I was just a member. That's all in the '60s. When I got back there after, I saw Jordan in South Africa. And rejoined the British Movement this time under the tutelage of Gerry Gable. Tore the bloody [inaudible] thing to pieces, you know, wrecked it completely.

Okay. Can I just go back to pre-South Africa for one more minute as well?

Yeah. Sure. Yeah.

What kind of activities were you doing in the British Movement? How did it campaign?

Very much mundane stuff really. Demonstrations, placard holding, leafleting, so on and so forth. Although there was a strong connection with football matches, because it was felt that there was good recruiting ground, you know. So [inaudible] leaflets at football matches [inaudible], you know. Laughed and applauded when the bananas were thrown on the field at black players, so on and so forth, you know. But that didn't last long, you know. It only lasted 18 months, or something like that.

Do you, oh, God, the question's completely gone now. Excuse me.

All right.

Hold one second. Did you encounter any anti-fascists while you were campaigning for British Movement?

Oh, yeah. They encountered me as well.

Okay.

Oh, yeah.

Were these counter demonstrations or?

That's right. Yeah.

Oh, okay.

Yeah. There was a bunch. It wasn't infrequent.

Okay.

Yeah,

Did you seek out punch ups, or was it just something that happens?

It was inevitable. It was like night follows day. You knew it was going to happen. It happened.

Okay. Would you say there was, did the anti-fascists initiate things? Did you guys initiate things, or was it--

Mutual consent.

Okay. One more thing I need to ask you about on the British Movement. Two more things. Sorry. The first thing is [inaudible] action 19--

Colin Jordan's election agent.

What was that campaign [inaudible]?

It was what you'd expect. There was nothing [inaudible]. Right? Factory door meetings. Going in pubs. Buying people a pint. Telling them, you know, this is your country, not these black bastards, so on and so forth. Fairly straightforward, mundane sort of thing. [inaudible] there [inaudible], of course.

Okay.

Well, anti-fascists.

Any any groups in particular?

I'm going to tell you that. Unprovable, but true.

Okay.

[inaudible] make it tough. One blow they are stretched on his back like our Lord on the cross. It was a fucking [inaudible] agent.

[ Laughter ]

Never been sorry about that, I must admit.

Oh, dear.

Oh, well.

Was he infiltrating [inaudible]--

Yeah. Infiltrating the fascists actually. He also had them infiltrating the anti-fascists, you know. There were a lot more of them than there were a bloody [inaudible].

So now this guy you laid out, he was trying to infiltrate--

Yeah.

British Movement?

Yeah. Yeah.

How did you know? Did you know?

Guessed.

You guessed.

Yeah, yeah. But not very good, you know. They're really not.

What gave them away?

Ah, just loose talk, and obvious lies, you know. Obvious lies [inaudible], you know.

Was that something that you were very concerned of, or concerned about?

What? Infiltration?

Yeah.

No. No. Not really.

Okay.

We always felt that they would expose themselves sooner or later. And most of them, regrettably, did, of course.

So what do you think Colin Jordan's aims were in contesting [inaudible]? Was it just a protest, or did he really think that he could win serious support?

I don't think he thought he could win. I mean he got three and a half or four percent. Didn't he? Something like that on the day, if I remember rightly. And I think it was about what he expected. It was really a trolling expedition. And he did pick up quite a few members.

Okay. So what about the message of the campaign? You've talked before about almost different layers. Women,--

Yeah.

The British Movement.

Yeah.

So outwardly it's very kind of popular races, and that kind of--

Yeah.

That kind of thing.

Yeah.

With a core of conspiracy theory--

That's right.

In the--

That's right.

How did that translate to the campaign?

It didn't. It didn't. No [inaudible] of desemitism in this country when we get in power. We don't believe that Hitler gassed six million. But we fucking will. That's what they said.

Do you remember who said that?

That was Jordan. That was Jordan.

So--

Were the opponents in the campaign trying to attach that Nancy label to the British Movement at the time?

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. I mean, you know, this is only a couple of years after Jordan. I was studying Trafalgar Square, and made a speech. [inaudible] 18 months in prison, in which he condemned international jury as the orchestrators of all evil. So, yeah, of course. I mean I didn't just think, "Well, Colin's changed his mind," you know.

But in terms of the message the campaign was putting out, though it was--

Ignored. I remember that one journalist asked him about Hitler. And Jordan said to him, "Hitler is about as relevant to this violation as is Stalin."

Okay. So there was no overt--

No overt Nazis in the whole history [inaudible], you know.

I'm just going to pause the tape for a second.

Sure.

Okay. So the last thing I wanted to ask you about your time at Leicester is, obviously, you mentioned violence was a frequent occurrence.

God, of course, yeah.

Was there any trouble with the police?

Never actually fought with the police. No. They very often, and this is a [inaudible], but the anti-fascists tended to let the police provoke them. And we were all about laughing. We'll laugh all at the police, you know. That was the general sort of scenario.

But did you ever get in trouble with the police because of the violence?

Oh, I was nicked a couple of times. Not anything dramatic, you know. I think Public Order Act, and things like that, you know.

Okay. There's a line about one particular attack on a student in a cafe in Leicester.

Oh, that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

In 1969?

[inaudible] shite. Yeah. I didn't even know he was a Jew, and I [inaudible] him. I [inaudible] him because he was a coon, not because he was a Jew.

Okay.

It really had nothing to do with politics at all.

Okay. This was more of a [inaudible]--

Yeah, yeah. It was. Yeah.

Okay. So you mentioned your wife was very influential in the decision to move--

That's right.

To South Africa.

Yeah.

What did she think of your politics at this point?

Well, my wife's a clever woman. You know, she's a history graduate. [inaudible] first in history at Lancaster University. She is no fool. But party politics she isn't greatly interested in at all. Her fascination with it is about on a par with my fascination with embroidery, you know. [inaudible] above it. But she did object to the length of time, the level of commitment, and her personal dislike of most of my associates a lot of time. Yeah. So she was influential [inaudible]. Yeah.

Okay. So you move to South Africa. And you meet, you know, new friends, new crowd of people. Many of them Jewish. Obviously, South Africa is a radically different culture--

Very different.

To the U.K. It was in the midst of apartheid at the time?

That's right.

How did you feel about that? Going to South Africa?

Apartheid was funny, you know. You didn't notice it. You just didn't notice it. You go out into the streets of Jo'burg at night, and you're unlikely to see a black face, you know, back in the location as a scholar [inaudible]. Actually you didn't see a lot of it. But I did become a bit pissed off with apartheid. I didn't like it. I had one particular expression. You see we used to have a black lady working for us as a nanny. That was regular. Par for the course out there, of course. And she had a little girl called Gracie [assumed spelling]. She was a [foreign language]. And we didn't take any notice of her. [inaudible] used to stay with us, you know, through the week and go home on her day off [inaudible]. It was strictly speaking against the law. And you got nicked for it, you know. But we got away with it. And my daughter, Susie [assumed spelling], who was the same age as Gracie. I mean I'm talking three, four years old. Gracie couldn't speak a word of English. As soon as you spoke a bit, of course, having been brought up with Gladys [assumed spelling]. And they were very friendly. Used to play with Gracie all the time. But little Gracie didn't speak a word of English. And, of course, Susie called me "Daddy," and Gracie thought it was my name. And I went down to help [inaudible] port, which is real bloody, [inaudible], you know. And that was where we were living. And I [inaudible] into the shop one day, and Gladys is in there with Gracie standing at the counter for black people. I was at the counter for white people. And Gracie said, "Daddy!" Fucking oh! You know?

[ Laughter ]

And the bloody silly coppers came around, you know, to interview me about it. I mean, you know, just little irritating things like that used to really piss me off. They really did. And by the time I'd been there a few years, I was getting so irritated with the petty, silly nature of it, that it did, you know, made me think, "Well, you know, this is bloody ridiculous, you know. Childish." And you can't really. And nobody with much humanity about them can stay in South Africa for ten years. I'm not going to just like apartheid. Just so horrible, you know. Just horrible. I mean people being arrested for falling in love, you know. That sort of thing. Bloody awful. But there you are. I mean the main thing that tipped me was the fact that I have so many Jewish friends. And we got to the sort of a statuary. They had one guy that I was particularly friendly with. And his name was Lou Goldrich [assumed spelling]. And I'll ring him up and say, "Arrest him tonight, Lou." You know, we used to [inaudible] racecars. He was also in to Ellis Park to watch the boxing. And I'd say, "You're going to arrest him tonight, Louie?" He'd say, "No. I can't. I've got to get an early night. We're having a meeting tonight. And we'll take over the world tomorrow." Oh, all right. Can joke about it, you know. It was a laugh like, you know. And that was sort of, I left it behind me. I'd forgotten about it more or less. And then, of course, the National Front of South Africa came into existence. And it was Lou who said to me, and I didn't [inaudible] any interest in politics still. Not adult politics [inaudible]. But I believe it was a member of the [inaudible] the South African [inaudible]. Something like that. Some organization like that anyway. And picked the Johannesburg Star, pick up the Inaugural Meeting, National Front of South Africa. And I'd not sooner read it, then the phone rang. "Have you seen it?" I said, "Yeah. I have." He said, "Will you do something for me?" I said, "What's that?" He said, "I want you to go to that meeting." I said, "Bloody joking, aren't ya?" "No. I want you to go." I said, "Why don't you go?" He said, "Because they'd recognize me [inaudible]. Just go. Keep your eyes open. Tell me who's there. Tell me what was said. So will you do that for me?" So I said, "Yeah. Of course I will." And I did, you know. And that was that. I started on the slippery slope.

What was it like going to the meeting?

Well, you know, I mean I knew exactly what to expect, you know. Knew exactly what to expect. A little bit old hat really, you know. [inaudible] it very much. Just went and did what he asked. Yeah.

Can you tell me something like what are the practical details of that? I mean how do you keep, how do you identify people? How do you keep a record of who's there? How do you report back?

Well, you get out and make your notes. And then you destroy them when you've conveyed them. You never keep anything that can come back and bite your ass, you know. You just be a professional, you know.

Did you know who you were reporting back to?

Yeah, Lou.

Okay.

I'm not sure you need to know.

Okay.

Yeah.

So how many meetings of the South Africa National Front did you go to?

Oh, a couple of dozen I suppose [inaudible].

Okay. Did they ever try and bring you deeper into the movement in the way that Colin Jordan did?

Well, I was in as deep as I could get. I mean they elected me Chairman, you know. It's fucking ridiculous. But they did. I thought I was going to bit too far, you know. I came back to England, eventually. And was introduced to Gerry. And he said, "You've done a good job over there I hear." He said, "Would you get into the [inaudible] for me?" So I did.

What was it like being Chairman of the South African National Front?

Well, I didn't do anything, you know. Just get records. Who was who. Where was where. What was said. What was going on. What was [inaudible]. But, yeah, that's it.

Did they ever get suspicious?

Yeah, I think so. On the odd occasion perhaps. But I weathered it all right, you know.

Any standout figures from those days that stick in your memory?

Max Bolo [assumed spelling], Italian bloke. A member of the Italian Fascist group. Yeah. There were a few quite significant people. Oh, yeah. Jack Normal [assumed spelling] was another. He'd make 30 grand from an organization calling themselves the Sons of England. [inaudible] 30 grand. Wish I could've got to it first.

So why did you decide to come back in the end?

Well, it was all sorts of things. I mean my father-in-law died. Leaving my mother-in-law on her own. And [inaudible] was getting a bit rested. And, you know, it was a combination of personal and family considerations, you know.

So how did you get put in touch with Gerry?

It was a lad from, a South African lad, who said, "You know, you're going back [inaudible]. I'm outnumbered." Yeah. He was a South African Jewish lad. So I phoned him. Arranged a meet. And that was that. I mean I've known Gerry 30 years now.

What did you guys make of each other at first?

Don't know. I mean I think there was probably a bit of suspicion on his part. Why not, you know? I'm going to expect that. But 30 years later I think that should of just about dissipated by now.

So who instigated the idea for you to infiltrate [inaudible]--

Oh, it was Gerry's idea. It was Gerry's idea. And in no time at all I was Deputy Leader of the BNP.

So what did you and Gerry make of each other at first?

Well, Gerry's a personable sort of bloke. And I quite liked him. I think he regarded me with some suspicion at first. He'd of been crazy not to. But, as I say, I think that 30 years should have allayed that. In fact, I know it has. And we're damn good friends now, you know.

So who did he suggest you try and infiltrate?

British Movement, which by that time was under the control of McLaughlin, the milkman. And I did. And I became McLaughlin's Deputy Leader.

Was that a particular time at that time for a reason, or was it because you had--

It was by far the most violent of the fascist organizations--

Okay.

At that time.

What kind of reputation did it have?

Well, it was [inaudible]. Very, very violent indeed. I mean it was the heir to Jordan. He'd burned down God knows how many synagogues in the '60s. And it was the heir to Jordan. And, if anything, McLaughlin was nastier than Jordan. Very, very nasty piece of work indeed.

Did it feel like the tone of the movement had changed while you'd been away?

Not really. No. No, I wouldn't say that. No. It was, essentially, the same. I mean there were different, you know, priorities, and that sort of thing, yeah, as prompted by events. But, generally speaking, no, in that respect. You see, fascism does remain the same, because the one thing that binds the fascist movement together, thank you very much, darling, is its antisemitism. Nothing else. Nothing else at all. That's how in relatively recent times we got some financing for Colonel Gaddafi, despite the racism, which condemned many of his racial brethren, shall we call them, as not to put too [inaudible] a bunch of bloody wogs [inaudible] that usually described. But, even so, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Antisemitism prompted Gaddafi to help them. And that's worth bearing in mind. It's the mortar in the bricks, antisemitism is,. You know, you've got racists in the Labor Party. You've got racists in the [inaudible] Party. Of course you have. Myself, and I don't want you to think that I sort of go along with every modern trend that raises its head, because I am most certainly don't. I'm completely colorblind. And race is of no consequence to me whatsoever. I don't believe in positive discrimination. I don't believe in any discrimination at all. Simple as that. And I can, therefore, step back from it, and look at the situation. And the thing that makes a fascist is antisemitism. Nothing else. Nothing else at all.

So apart from McLaughlin who else was around in the British Movement when you reentered.

Robert Ralph [assumed spelling]. Remember Ralph? He was a guy who advertised his house in Leamington Spa. It was, yeah, I think Leamington Spa, for sale to an English family only. Went to prison. Went on a hunger strike. And the government caved in. Released him. He was only a week from death. And they caved in and released him, because they didn't want a martyr I suppose. And he was around. He was quite prominent and notorious at the time, you know. I trolled through a few newspapers in the '60s and mid- to late-[inaudible] plenty about Robert Ralph. He was around. McLaughlin was around. Derrick Day [assumed spelling]. He was a [inaudible] character from the East End [inaudible] area. He was around. Quite a few people who made a bit of a splash during the day, you know.

[ Inaudible Speaker ]

The same as they ever did. The same as they always will. Encouraging young misguided angry men to vent their anger on the wrong targets, whilst sitting, hopefully, plotting the demise of international Judaism in the little culture [inaudible], you know that as well. Half a dozen top end of the fascist spectrum.

So how did they react to you returning from South Africa? Obviously, they see you as the Chairman of South African National Front.

Well, I mean Gerry Gable, he's a clever lad, Gerry, you know. And rather than just sort of come back, and wander into some National Front meeting, and that was it. He accepted me with open arms. I came back and kept a low profile for about three month. And three consecutive issues of Searchlight did full-page spreads on this organizational genius on the evil Nazi to boot, who was returning from South Africa to lead British fascism out of its [inaudible], you know. So, of course, when I did turn up, he said to me, "Bloody red carpet went down." You know, it was a shortcut to greater things, as you might say.

Was that kind of, had that always been part of the plan, this kind of disinformation?

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, of course, yeah.

So how widely read is Searchlight by the British Movement at this point?

I would imagine at about 1/3 of this city [inaudible]. It is circulation I would have thought. I mean it was necessary reading, you know. Yeah.

Okay. So I mean looking at the history books, the next few years are quite complicated in terms of movements and organizations. What happened to the British Movement when you reentered it?

Well, it didn't last very long. Obviously. It was [inaudible]. And I plotted its demise with John Tindall. I mean, you see, the problem is for fascism they have a Fuhrer complex. So everybody wants to be the lead leader. And John Tindall was vying with McLaughlin for the leadership as well. So I left McLaughlin. Went to [inaudible]. Took half his movement with me. And he wrapped it up. He just dissolved the movement. He had about three members and a dog, you know. And I joined the others. And had a lot of fun destroying them as well.

How did you first meet John Tindall?

At a meeting. At the 1979 general election meeting met Tindall, and Webster. Webster was a hateful creature, mind you. I met Webster in the '60s. I knew Webster fairly well from the '60s. Hateful man. Really was. Very, very nasty, Martin Webster. Machiavellian.

Why do you say that?

Well, from what I know of him. From his imaginations. [inaudible] somebody better than him.

So what's John Tindall like when you first meet him and approach him?

Very formal. Very correct. Quite presentable actually. Yeah. Quite presentable fella, you know. Yeah.

Did he propose the idea of you bringing the British Movement [inaudible]--

Oh, yeah. Sure. Yes, of course. Yes, of course. Which I went along with, of course.

Did you ever have any concerns that what you were doing might help the fascist movement in some way? Not intentionally.

No. No. I know what you're saying. If it did, it would be very temporary. I mean occasionally, yes. You know, you could have a successful event, which did not necessarily lead to a successful conclusion. And that's what we plotted, you know.

So you split off from the British Movement. John Tindall informed the BNP [inaudible]--

The BNP was actually, it was me who didn't want it to go to the National Party. You know, my proposal at the appropriate meeting is a more telling one that I can't remember each one [inaudible]. It was my proposal was it be called the British National Party. And Tindall opposed it. And I got my way. And it became the BNP. So--

[ Inaudible Speaker ]

It's my monument.

There was an earlier movement as well [inaudible]--

Well, it was indeed. Yeah. Yeah. [inaudible], yeah. Yeah.

Okay. So you're at the dawn of a new party. I guess where do you sit in the hierarchy of this group?

Oh, I'm sitting on [inaudible].

What were the party objectives when you started?

Recruitment, our first objective. Take over the fascists, the disparate fascist groups, and incorporate them into one. And then start to make an assault on the electoral system.

So there's a conscious electoral strategy [inaudible]--

Oh, yeah. Yeah. From the start. Yeah. Yeah.

So when you said unite disparate fascist groups, who else is still around at this point?

Oh, there was still a tiny little group in East London calling themselves the National Party. There was Eddie Morrison [assumed spelling] and one or two colleagues calling themselves the English National Party. All sorts of three men and a dog little outfits, you know.

How about the National Front at this point?

Well, that was a [inaudible] destroyed it.

When you say destroyed, how did you go about that?

We seduced most of its members. Time-honored fashion, you know. Seduce most of its members. And time did the rest. They just [inaudible] without [inaudible] as was intended, you know.

So-- How regular are you in contact with Gerry at this point?

Now?

Yeah. Well, when [inaudible]--

[inaudible] then? Used to meet him about once a month.

Okay. What kind of information did you pass him?

Well, everything without reservation. Everything I had. Many times I'd wear a wire, and just hand it over to him. Sometimes I'd have to make physical notes, and hand them over to him. Sometimes it would be a verbal report on the phone immediately after the event that was being reported upon. We did what was convenient, you know, at the time.

You weren't worried that they would, were you ever worried that you would give yourself [inaudible] or something like that?

[ Inaudible Speaker ]

No. The requirements are for such a role a ridiculous amount of self-confidence, which I've always had, and still have, [inaudible]. And a cheekable neck, you know. And to manage it [inaudible]--

[ Inaudible Speaker ]

Are we--

We'll pause [inaudible]--

Source Citation

Source Citation   

Gale Document Number: GALE|HGKSXV612947742